Career Growth Curves and the Data Gene as the Answer to Everything

Announcer (00:04): Welcome to Raw Data with Rob Collie, real talk about AI and data for business impact. And now CEO and Founder of P3 Adaptive, your host, Rob Collie.

Rob Collie (00:20): Well, hi, Justin.

Justin Mannhardt (00:21): Hello, Rob.

Rob Collie (00:22): I actually haven't seen you in a little while. We'll talk about that. But first, I just wanted to warn you that I've got the flu. I remember what this used to be like. You used to have young children. This thing happens to you pretty frequently. We flew across the country to visit a toddler, who was showing no symptoms of being sick. The kid doesn't actually have to be sick in order to get you sick.

Justin Mannhardt (00:40): They just carry it with them.

Rob Collie (00:41): Yeah.

Justin Mannhardt (00:42): Like a transmitter.

Rob Collie (00:43): I made it back to Seattle, and now splat. Yeah.

Justin Mannhardt (00:48): Are you on the end of this, do you think, or at the beginning?

Rob Collie (00:53): I think I'm in the thick of it.

Justin Mannhardt (00:54): Oh, okay.

Rob Collie (00:55): I didn't know that I was sick. I tried to go to Orangetheory, go to the gym yesterday, and couldn't do anything.

Justin Mannhardt (01:02): Oh man, you can tell fast when you try to work out, and you're like, "Oh, something's wrong." I'll knock on wood for you. Sometimes these things you can just miraculously bounce out of, like one out of 50 times.

Rob Collie (01:12): Yeah. Yeah, 2% of the time it works every time. I'm going to power through here.

Justin Mannhardt (01:17): I got to tell you, you sound pretty good.

Rob Collie (01:19): And that's lucky because this thing is trying to take my voice. It is. It's coming for it. It's like, "That throat of yours, it's ours." We've definitely got some interesting things to talk about in your neck of the woods. Why is it that I haven't seen as much of you over the past seven days as I normally would?

Justin Mannhardt (01:39): Well, the primary reason for that is, seven days ago was my last official day on the job with P3 Adaptive.

Rob Collie (01:50): After how many years?

Justin Mannhardt (01:51): Just over seven.

Rob Collie (01:52): My goodness. What an era.

Justin Mannhardt (01:54): Officially the longest tenure I've had with anywhere during my career, by a mile.

Rob Collie (01:59): Seven years at this point is like an unbreakable record in some ways, right?

Justin Mannhardt (02:03): Yeah.

Rob Collie (02:03): These days, right?

Justin Mannhardt (02:04): Yeah. I suppose.

Rob Collie (02:05): In this day and age anyway.

Justin Mannhardt (02:07): Yeah.

Rob Collie (02:07): Well, we certainly are glad to be the record holders in the Justin Mannhardt universe.

Justin Mannhardt (02:12): It'll take a long time to unseat that record.

Rob Collie (02:15): No one knows how long.

Justin Mannhardt (02:16): No one knows how long.

Rob Collie (02:16): This is not a number you can know. You can't even look it up.

Justin Mannhardt (02:21): No way to know.

Rob Collie (02:22): For a long time, it's always been my ethos and it's always needed to be an ethos that we accept and live with at the company, that if you're a place that attracts good people and gives them the opportunity to take on new challenges and all of that, you also have to accept that sometimes those people are going to want to go do something different. And that is what's happening here. And you and I, we still intend to keep doing this podcast.

Justin Mannhardt (02:45): That's right.

Rob Collie (02:45): And whatever your new venture is ... Which you'll be talking about a little bit maybe this week?

Justin Mannhardt (02:49): Yep.

Rob Collie (02:50): Whatever that is, I look forward to having that diversity of worlds. I'm sure we're going to overlap quite a bit. But having that diversity of conversation.

Justin Mannhardt (03:02): I am too.

Rob Collie (03:02): Right now, we both have been ... For seven plus years, right? We've been swimming in the same waters. We can cross-pollinate a bit more. I think this is going to be a good thing for the podcast. If you're a customer of the podcast, you're about to experience an increase in value.

Justin Mannhardt (03:20): I think so too. When I was thinking about this, for us, how often we would come to a recording session to grapple with something for the first time in a way. It'll continue to be good for us, even as individuals in that way. And more to come for me. What I'll say to the audience today is, everything at P3 seven-plus years was great and amazing. AI is so exciting right now, I wanted to get myself a little bit closer to the action in a different way. And so, doing something entrepreneurial has always been on my bucket list and I'm taking that leap. But exactly what that's going to look like is very much still TBA.

Rob Collie (04:00): I see what you did there, TBA, not TBD. Somewhat determined, not yet announced.

Justin Mannhardt (04:06): That's right.

Rob Collie (04:06): Look at that. Look at the-

Justin Mannhardt (04:08): Clever.

Rob Collie (04:10): ... news cycle management. Someone doesn't have the flu. You came to P3 as a consultant to do work.

Justin Mannhardt (04:20): That's right.

Rob Collie (04:21): To work with customers and light them up.

Justin Mannhardt (04:23): Yep.

Rob Collie (04:23): That is the dynamic that is kind of the beacon on the hill here that people want to come here for. As is often the case with our crew, we discovered that you have a talent for leadership. You have talent for growing organizations and things like that as well. And you kind of halfway got pressed into service and halfway volunteered. It's a little bit of both, right?

Justin Mannhardt (04:43): It was a fair deal, Rob.

Rob Collie (04:44): Yeah. There is a joy and an energy that we've all been experiencing again for the first time.

Justin Mannhardt (04:54): Absolutely.

Rob Collie (04:56): I haven't been slinging a lot of Power BI over the last 10 years.

Justin Mannhardt (05:00): Right.

Rob Collie (05:01): On the occasion that I did, it was a lot of fun, and energizing. But as an investment in our future selves, we've been, quote-unquote, "forced" to. Dragged kicking and screaming to engage with AI-driven development. And oh my God, that old love, right?

Justin Mannhardt (05:20): Yeah.

Rob Collie (05:21): That former passion that it's always been there, just coming back stronger than ever. I get it. I completely understood the moment that we first started talking about this, which was back, oh my gosh, it was like middle of January, right?

Justin Mannhardt (05:34): Yeah, a long time ago. Yeah.

Rob Collie (05:36): Oh my gosh, have I appreciated working with you. I've appreciated everything you've done for us. We're in a different place, in a really good place.

Justin Mannhardt (05:42): Obviously, there's a whole team back at P3 and people that have stepped up, and we worked through a transition to put everybody in a place to keep the dream alive, so to speak. I don't think I'd be doing this having not been at P3.

Rob Collie (05:55): Aww.

Justin Mannhardt (05:55): Because I learned so much about my own skillset. Got to go out into the arena, so to speak. And had to work with clients and deal with selling and running a team and growing a business and all the things. The company was a unique opportunity to have those types of experiences that make the idea of starting a business from zero. The other interesting thing this week is, I don't have a dashboard that tells me what's happening because it's just zero. But to know you have the ability to do those things, that's a big part of this story too. So I'm grateful for the opportunity to have done that for so long.

Rob Collie (06:40): A lot of exposure to engagement with the chaotic real world at a level that, in your former role before you came here, you were boxed in and shielded from all of that, and not as much room to grow, right? But oh my gosh, look what happened when you take Justin out of that container.

Justin Mannhardt (07:01): Nothing against the companies I've worked for throughout my career, but you just sort of know, "This is my role, these are the processes I support. The widgets come at me this way. I turn them into wadgets and off they go." And especially being on the leadership team as chief customer officer the last several years, that's funny, I was talking to some of the people that are stepping up into that role and similar, there's not necessarily a playbook.

Rob Collie (07:24): No. Yeah.

Justin Mannhardt (07:25): The world comes at you and you try to play offense as much as you can. That was very much a very rewarding challenge for me personally.

Rob Collie (07:35): Existing mature companies work, in large part because they have defined roles and containers for roles at least below a certain level on the org chart. Turns out though, in industries where things aren't as mature, aren't as well mapped, but also even in the industries that are mature and well mapped, at a certain level of that organization, there isn't a playbook. There's less of a playbook. There's less of a container, less of a ... Right? It's kind of funny, my first job at Microsoft, I was a tester. My job was to find bugs. I was very much a cog in the machine at that point, right?

Justin Mannhardt (08:16): Sure.

Rob Collie (08:17): And I used to delight when I'd find a bug that I knew was going to be hard for them to figure out how to fix it. Those were the ones that I enjoyed the most, because I was thinking about it halfway through their lens, like, "Oh, this one's going to be not just hard to fix, but hard to even decide what to do." What is the right ... I was throwing those bugs over the wall, just enjoying the hell out of every one of those Howitzer shells that I was lobbing over the ... And then the program manager in charge of that project left. He got in a fight with his manager and I'd always wanted a job like that, so I raised my hand and I ended up in his job. And guess what happened? I got assigned a bunch of my own bugs.

Justin Mannhardt (09:01): Take that, Rob.

Rob Collie (09:02): Because he'd been putting them off. Like, "These suck," right? "I don't want to deal with these."

Justin Mannhardt (09:11): These are guys are now meeting with the managers.

Rob Collie (09:11): I'm sitting there staring them in the eye like, "Now what?"

Justin Mannhardt (09:14): This Rob Collie kid. He's an up and comer, I think.

Rob Collie (09:19): Son of a bitch tester. But yeah, suddenly the lights came up. I had to discover new parts of my brain, and it was awesome. So I'm really grateful to have been the place where you can do that. And as you said, other people came here for the same reasons and we have some more potential. And even in the last week, I won't get too specific about this, but even the last week, I've been able to see more of that, people having more room to grow into. I'm already seeing more of them.

Justin Mannhardt (09:49): That's great.

Rob Collie (09:49): It's really kind of nice. It's the circle of life.

Justin Mannhardt (09:52): Ooo-ya-nah.

Rob Collie (09:55): How does that go? I know how that song goes, or at least the moment in the Lion King where he thrusts him up into the sky.

Justin Mannhardt (10:00): Yeah.

Rob Collie (10:01): I know how that goes really well, because I'm constantly grabbing our cats and thrusting them up towards the ceiling and singing that. And I have no idea what the words are obviously, because it's in-

Justin Mannhardt (10:09): Yeah, just in the general tonality.

Rob Collie (10:10): ... some other language, right? But like, "Ah-sa-bene-yah." Cat's looking at me like, "What are you doing?" I look forward to hearing more about the TBA.

Justin Mannhardt (10:23): The TBA. There's a little game here. I might as well just say this because of the announcements, it is to be announced, but it's also TBA. So stay tuned. Now we're-

Rob Collie (10:33): Double entendre.

Justin Mannhardt (10:34): Double entendre. Just to circle back to the point you made, we've been living in the same fishbowl together for so long. We were in different roles at different times, but we would see generally the same problems. And so I'm excited to show up and swap stories in a way that we haven't been able to do, and have different points of view on things or different experiences. And hopefully that becomes enriching and valuable to the people that tune in and listen to the show.

Rob Collie (11:03): Yeah. So is this worth us taking a click on, Luke? No.

Justin Mannhardt (11:12): No.

Rob Collie (11:12): It can't be.

Justin Mannhardt (11:13): Uh-uh. I refuse to accept this.

Rob Collie (11:20): Producer Luke just shared with us a link that explains what they're actually saying in that scene in The Lion King. And we'll put it in the show notes. We're not going to ruin it here.

Justin Mannhardt (11:31): I refuse to accept this.

Rob Collie (11:32): All right. So an appropriate topic, something that's been bouncing around in my head. It's really, really, really obvious. I'm not claiming some great insight or epiphany here, but at the same time, it dawned on me with a clarity that either I needed or I had lost and refound it recently in the last week. What Power BI did for BI, AI-powered development, things like Claude Code, etc, are doing for kind of like everything in tech. It's hard to come up with an information technology type of problem. It's kind of off limits now to what we call the data gene crowd. And it's an amazing hop up in power, both quantitatively and qualitatively. But it is neat to trace this exponential arc from, again, the people who like or liked Excel versus those who didn't. And for a long time, all they had was Excel and access.

(12:39): They had certain tools that they could achieve certain things with, but they were capped. Those tools didn't have the power or the reliability or the scalability. A lot of things were lacking from them that, quote-unquote, "serious" IT tools had. And Power BI bridged that gap between that crowd and the top end of power. And it was really kind of the first thing that was really, truly successful in that space. It had been something that people have been working on forever. The notion of low code or whatever has been ... I was part of a failed project, as all of these were, in the early 2000s working on something called the Script Wizard that was meant to be like-

Justin Mannhardt (13:21): Oh, right.

Rob Collie (13:22): ... "Let's bring the Outlook Rules Wizard" to programming. I had written like a 45-page specification on this thing that we eventually realized was not going to work at all. We don't even have to put pen to paper with code. It's going to break down. So there's been attempts at this, but Power BI really, we should give it its due, was the first truly ... I mean, am I missing any? I don't know. I mean, to truly bridge the gap between the data gene ... What we came to call citizen developers, but I still think of them as the data gene people, to bridge the gap between them and the top end of power.

Justin Mannhardt (13:55): And that realm, because anybody that was trying to solve problems with numbers, information, process. I lived that journey in my career. I became an Excel jockey out of a desire to pursue the problem. It was a tool I had.

Rob Collie (14:14): So Power BI took that crowd, us-

Justin Mannhardt (14:17): Yeah, us.

Rob Collie (14:20): ... basically to the heights of the industry. When you ended up with the celebrities in the space, the Italians, the Chris Webbs, using the same tool that the Excel crowd had been using or some subset of it anyway, that was different. But now, as a society, we're in the earliest stages of discovering this. The answer to low-code is actually not low-code.

Justin Mannhardt (14:48): Not anymore.

Rob Collie (14:49): The answer to low-code is real code.

Justin Mannhardt (14:52): Real code.

Rob Collie (14:53): But written with AI assistance, that's low-code.

Justin Mannhardt (14:58): For sure. I mean, we've talked about it on the podcast. You've done things, I've done things where working with Claude Code or whatever tool has spun out tens of thousands of lines of code in whatever language and we've not bothered to read a look of it. And I saw there was a great post, it was actually from a tried and true software engineer, we stopped reading the output from the compiler however many years ago. This is no different than that.

Rob Collie (15:24): 100%. And we had an internal question here, and we do these Rob AMA internal meetings. We did one this week. We're doing them more frequently now because of the rate of change in the industry. And so the same thing came up. I'm going to have to step away from the place where I run my fingers through the script. I run my fingers through the code and I become one with it and I get a lot of confidence there. And I pointed out, you're not worried about what's happening down in the processor. You're not worried about the analog threshold of voltage when it switches from a one to a zero. The AND gates, the OR gates, the NAND gates, etc, all this stuff, we don't care about it. But there was a time when to program, you needed to care.

Justin Mannhardt (16:09): Yeah, absolutely.

Rob Collie (16:10): The original ENIAC, they looked like a switchboard. They were unplugging these big RCA plugs, right? Those big headphone plugs from the 1970s, you were literally plugging one hole into another hole in order to ... That was your programming. The journey of computing has been a journey of ever and ever-greater abstraction.

Justin Mannhardt (16:33): I think on net, that's good because it empowers more people to do things with computers in a way that's way more natural. You were telling the example of people running their fingers through the scripts. If you do something with AI and you realize, "Oh, there's a bug," and if you've had experience with coding, you'd be like, "Oh, it's right here and it did this thing wrong, and I know that," we forget the fact that it also did a whole bunch of other stuff almost in an instant. And you don't need to be the one that goes and says, "Claude" or Codex or whatever, "here, right here you just need to observe the app or the tool or whatever isn't doing this thing right. Can you figure it out?" Go back to tester Rob, log the bug, let it figure it out.

Rob Collie (17:21): Oh, this is neat. Someone sent me a podcast recently to listen to. I haven't finished it. But in the early going in the podcast, I think the host of the podcast says that he's been hearing two very different stories. On the one hand, he's been hearing things like Claude Code are magic. They're game changers. They just blow the lid off. But he's also been hearing stories of like, "Nah, it just doesn't work. It breaks. It generates bad stuff. My app doesn't work," etc, etc. It was really kind of electrifying for me. This is a big podcast. To hear on this very, very, very popular podcast, a host of this stature saying that really energized me. Because what he's really reporting is what he's been hearing from the data gene crowd on the first note, and the civilians, the normal humans on the other.

(18:23): There's mutants and non-mutants. And for the non-mutants, normal people who are very, very capable in many, many ways that maybe we're not, this thing does suck. I was watching Claude Code today. I'm trying to debug something and it's telling me that it's because I have spaces in my file path. And I'm like, "But this problem was only happening intermittently, like half the time." I just had to call bullshit on it. If it were spaces in the file name, that would be 100% DOA. It would never work. And this is, "Oh yeah, you're right." This is Opus 4.6. This thing is amazing.

Justin Mannhardt (19:02): The latest and greatest.

Rob Collie (19:03): I am not throwing this thing under the bus because in the five minutes before that, what was it doing for me? It was blowing the doors off. But I had to grab it and steer it. And then even after that, it was getting confused and still trying to preserve this other approach it had come up with to try to solve the file path with spaces thing. It was still trying to inject that back into the solutions it was doing for me. I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, ease off. We've decided that the spaces aren't a problem. I don't need that network drive mapping that you've been trying to come up with." It was literally trying to map this path on my hard drive that had spaces in it to be colon-backslash.

Justin Mannhardt (19:47): This is a really interesting idea of how, especially the LLM coding tools, how freakishly capable they are, but then how moronic they can be in an instant.

Rob Collie (19:58): Yeah. Right.

Justin Mannhardt (19:59): I created a command in Claude Code whenever I want to research something. I've given an instruction like, "Here's where you can go get context about me or other things related to the topic. And I wanted you to do it in this specific way." And whenever I have this, it might be in a conversation you and I are having, and you tell me about your microphone. I'm like, "Oh, research best podcast microphones for blah, blah, blah, blah." I'd do that and then I go away. So I did this the other day and I come back, and I'm watching the terminal just freak out trying to run Bash commands and all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, "Claude, what are you doing?" Turns out one of my MCP servers just needed a re-auth, but it was just trying to work around the fact that it couldn't authenticate something it needed. And it's like, why didn't you just stop and ask for the re-auth?" And then everything's fine again? It was like, "Master asked for the research. We must succeed at our task."

Rob Collie (20:55): Yeah. Five billion tokens later.

Justin Mannhardt (20:58): Yeah. It's just like, "Oh, nope, that didn't work. Oh, let's try a different way. Oh, here, run this script." I was like, "What is happening?"

Rob Collie (21:07): In examples like these, we see that duality that the podcast host was talking about. He's hearing both of these stories. The person who was interviewing, his answer to that question, "Why am I hearing these two different stories?" as smart and as experienced as the guest was, I kind of think he botched the answer.

Justin Mannhardt (21:27): Oh, no.

Rob Collie (21:27): I really just think the answer is just the difference between the people who are using it. How willing are you to really engage? It's an excitement. You're either interested in that stuff or you're not. It's not a measure of your intelligence. It's just a measure of whether it tickles your fancy. It either tickles your fancy and you like it, or it feels like math class in high school.

Justin Mannhardt (21:49): Yeah, 100%.

Rob Collie (21:51): And even I, at times didn't enjoy math class in high school, but I dig a good spreadsheet. I dig Power BI. I dig Claude Code. It's an enthusiasm thing.

Justin Mannhardt (22:02): There's something to that, inherent curiosity that data geners have about problems, both business problems and technical problems. "Oh, why didn't that work? I'm not going to give up. I'm going to figure out why it didn't work and I want to understand, and I want to know." Just that drive. I think a lot of people, they see something that's not, quote, "right" come back from AI and they're like, "Ah, it doesn't work." Versus, "Huh, that's not ... I wonder ..." And you dig into that.

(22:32): The other thing I think that's really interesting that's going on right now is, this sounds a little bit cliche, but the statement was, "If everything is cheap now, we can code our eyeballs out and we can create applications, so ideas are super, super cheap, but vision isn't." I saw something the other day where someone's like, "I built the app that'll kill Calendly." Well, it's not going to kill Calendly because it's cheaper. You're going to suddenly attract a million monthly users? Just because we can tell Claude Code, "Build me a carbon copy of HubSpot," doesn't mean we're going to go take down HubSpot.

Rob Collie (23:09): Yeah. That's the moment where the vibe coding crowd gets to discover what real business is like.

Justin Mannhardt (23:17): Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Collie (23:19): I completely agree. Now you got to go come up with a marketing plan and a marketing budget, and how do you compensate for the lack of ecosystem?

Justin Mannhardt (23:28): Right.

Rob Collie (23:30): All these human plane problems that businesses have to solve, they're not tech problems. Tech can help.

Justin Mannhardt (23:38): Tech will move faster in the hands of the right people-

Rob Collie (23:40): That's right. That's right.

Justin Mannhardt (23:41): ... as a result of all this.

Rob Collie (23:43): A couple of the things that I've developed for personal use five years ago, I would have looked at them and said, "I should turn this into a SaaS product."

Justin Mannhardt (23:50): Go build a business. Yeah.

Rob Collie (23:51): But now I'm like, no, having the technology, having it built isn't the moat that it used to be. Even if it's brand new. Even if it would be a first in class of its breed. I'm not trying to replace something that already exists. It's first in class. If you had first in class disruptive software five years ago, I mean, giddy up. Now, maybe. It's now maybe. It's not definite no, but it is not nearly the definite yes that I think a lot of people think because there's so many vibe-coded SaaS offerings being spun up right now. And oh man, it's just, the only people who win are the AI companies and Nvidia.

Justin Mannhardt (24:32): Right. I think you and I both agree, in general software is going to change a lot as a result of AI. I do think there will be a lot more people trying to start companies or to create products because the barrier is so low. If anything, maybe we'll just see a lot more experimentation. But for people to show up with their wallets and buy into a product and to use it, they don't just do that just because you made it fast or you made it cheap.

Rob Collie (25:02): Yeah. We've come full circle. The difference, we could see it through this lens. The difference of you at your former job before you came to P3, discovering vibe coding, discovering Claude Code and all of that and saying, "Oh my God, I'm going to go out and start a business." Versus the version of you today that's making that same decision, that is a night and day difference.

Justin Mannhardt (25:24): Yeah.

Rob Collie (25:24): That other version-

Justin Mannhardt (25:27): I hadn't spent time thinking about it that way.

Rob Collie (25:28): Yeah.

Justin Mannhardt (25:28): Yeah.

Rob Collie (25:29): That other version of you has got-

Justin Mannhardt (25:31): I'd be like, "Oh look, I made Power BI."

Rob Collie (25:33): Yeah. Right. That other version of you would be in for some rude awakenings. The school of hard knocks was bringing his lessons, right? And not that that isn't going to be the case. It's always the case. It's an interesting lens to look at it, right?

Justin Mannhardt (25:47): AI can do basically two things, and it can do both of these things to the same people on different days. It can be really, really scary or it can be really, really exciting. And I just try and keep myself in that excited camp as much as I can because I have this new, exciting way to help people or to solve problems. And I'm going to do that as much as I can for as long as I can.

Rob Collie (26:11): Yeah. And keeping your focus relatively local. And I don't mean geographically local. I just mean the big picture, the long distance view of all of this stuff, we don't know really where it's going to land and you can drive yourself crazy thinking about that stuff. If you, again, keep things simple for a little while, "I'm going to do X and it's going to help these people, and I'm going to do that over and over again," that's a good operating system for right now.

Justin Mannhardt (26:40): There was a meme my wife showed me. Basically someone was like ... It was a comical thing about how they were having a moment with all the AI stuff and everything going on in the world. And they're just like, "You're too online, man." Because the LinkedIn doomscroll can really get at you when you hear people come off with their little catchy, "AI isn't going to take your job, but somebody with AI ..." It's like, "Oh God, are we still saying that?"

Rob Collie (27:06): It works. I make fun of those people in the book.

Justin Mannhardt (27:08): "The algorithm just loves it." I just don't think that's a very healthy way to think about the future. I don't claim to have the answers, but we should be leaning in to figure out, "Okay, like we said at the beginning of the show, "this is happening, so how can we be a part of it in the right ways, keep it local?"

Rob Collie (27:27): Here's an interesting closing observation. I think I might have shared on previous episodes of this that I occasionally find myself at social gatherings with Microsoft employees of my age, getting into arguments with them about whether AI can actually do a lot of these programming things. And they're saying, "No, no, it can't." In ways that have even gotten a little bit tense at times. I really feel like I'm trying to help them, but at the same time I'm also just trying to be right. I'm on these text threads with them. They send so many texts that I can't really keep up. But I did see some texts go by over the weekend from the same people I've been trying to convince, that are now talking like that they've always been on the side that-

Justin Mannhardt (28:11): They knew it all along.

Rob Collie (28:12): Yeah. Kind of want to wade in and go, "So are you saying that maybe I was right about that thing?"

Justin Mannhardt (28:20): It speaks to the ability to see the potential trajectories of where the technology has been headed for the last couple of years. Because you can go back to ChatGPT 3, 3.5, it wasn't nearly as good as what's out there today.

Rob Collie (28:34): That's right.

Justin Mannhardt (28:35): But to assume that the incentives to make it better or to solve the problems that get in its way wasn't there, just sort of a bit too ignorant.

Rob Collie (28:47): Yeah, I don't think I'm going to hear them say the same things anymore that they were saying even like four weeks ago. There will never be a concession speech. All right, I think that's good for this week. And again, really, really, really grateful to know you, to have known you, to continue to know you. Looking forward to what this journey brings us.

Justin Mannhardt (29:08): We're all about to find out together.